Okay, everyone, I would like to open a discussion about this…

The nature of this site - mind control - inevitably involves slavery it seems to me. Power exchange is what gets us all off here.

Historically, slavery has gone through many forms. Initially, it seems that tribes enslaved the tribes they conquered, forcing their defeated enemies to work for them. As civilisations became more organised and advanced [for example, Egypt or Rome] slaves were necessary to service the leisured classes. In a time when labour-saving devices did not exist, slavery was essential.

In the middle ages, slavery became serfdom. Peasants were tied to the land and were considered the property of their owners. Meanwhile, Arabs enslaved thousands of Africans and Europeans over many generations to work as servants or as sexual partners. The word ‘slave’ actually comes from the same word root as ‘Slav’, which proves that many of the Arabs’ slaves were Caucasian.

Our modern take on slavery was, until recently, dominated by the African slave trade which transported people from Africa to the Americas. The foundation of America was built on the idea of indentured labour. Minor criminals were transported to America to work for a specific amount of time. Many of these were British, particularly Irish. Eventually, in the agricultural southern states of the US, black slaves were purchased to work on the plantations.

More recently, our notions of slavery have been changed due to the advent of what is called ‘Modern Slavery’. This has two distinct forms. The first is Asian or African ‘slaves’ working in sweatshops to provide Western clothing or to grow crops on plantations such as cocoa beans or mine ores. The second is eastern Europeans used as sex workers or to pick fruit on farms.

Okay, now why am I rambling on about this?

As a black man, I have become increasingly weary of the way that, while it is possible to have white men enslaved by black men in stories on this site, the reverse is seen as ‘politically incorrect’.

I have written many stories for this site and have had black men and white men enslaved in my works of fiction - sometimes by their own race, sometimes by men of another race. When it is black on white, I am told how hot the story is. When it is white on black, I get comments about how ‘I loved this but felt uncomfortable about liking it…’

Now the question is - why?

I put it to you white gentlemen out there that because you still equate black people with slavery, you feel some kind of guilt reaction about stories which depict black men as slaves.

This is due to a fundamental misunderstanding of history.

As I constantly point out to schools who organise ‘Black History Month’ events around slavery - they need to make it plain to students that white people are also the descendants of slaves. Africans do not and never have had a monopoly on this condition…

Right now, across American and Europe, many brothers of African descent, both heterosexual and gay, are experimenting with the feelings of submission they feel for white men and women. I wish to tell my white readers out there that many of their black brothers are turned on by the ‘N’ word. They like the idea of a white person saying that to them.

It does not mean that they want to be slaves or that they wish the black race to be enslaved. It is a fetish - nothing more - nothing less. It is called ‘race-play’.

All I hope is that as black people are accepted as members of the human race alongside their white and Asian brothers and sisters, is that we can collectively get over this absurd ‘guilt’.

The reason I say this is that to feel this ‘guilt’ you have to be starting from the premise that black people are victims and ‘ex-slaves’ and I can authoritatively assure everyone out there that we are much more than that.

To thing anything otherwise is racist in itself. We do not need your sympathy or protection, thanks…

So can we please stop this patronising shit?


Marvyn x


I agree wholeheartedly.

I’ve been called a “SJW” in more than one occasion, because I have a very strong sense of fairness and empathy (at least I’d like to think that). But I really don’t like if certain ‘political correctness’ rules are used to silence people or are taken to the extreme, which usually leads to a whole new kind of discrimination with the roles reversed.

Especially with sexual fetishes, a selection of people is just absolutely commonplace. Starting with the gender of course, but also concerning phenotype, age, even origin and social status. It wouldn’t make much sense to look down on stories that revolve around any differences like these. It’s perfectly ok to have “a thing” for dark skinned men, for example. That’s not racism but just a personal preference for your sexual partners.

Only if a story would actively promote racism or would hint that a certain kind of people is inherently less valuable or less capable etc, I’d have a problem and would remove the story (in case that issue was missed when the story was approved).

Otherwise everything is fine and if someone blames an author for racism because of that, please let me know and I’ll step in.


Hi Marvyn,

I think the issue has a lot more complexity that what you say. The attempts at contextualization (knowing that lots of cultures had slaves) don’t do anything for me.

Personally speaking, I have absolutely no guilt about the beginnings of slavery in the U.S. - the earliest member of my family that came to the U.S. arrived in 1895. Yet, one would have to be very blind not to see the vestiges of American slavery present even in today’s world. Slavery no longer exists as an institution, very true. But the effects of it continue to this very day and I suspect will continue for many decades long after everyone reading this has passed on. When you walk on the streets and you see ordinary black people defer to white people, or when a black person responds to your question with “Yes, Sir,” or when you’re on an elevator and the black person refuses to get off the elevator first even though they in the better position to exit, or when you’re in a service position and are trying to help a black person and they keep apologizing for not knowing the answers to issues they couldn’t have known the answers to…or conversely, when black people are late to a meeting (this is known and documented aspect of unconscious resistance to the presence of white domination)…when you experience these kinds of things at least once a week (often more times than that), for years and decades…it’s very, very hard not to be acutely aware that the effects of American slavery are still happening more than 150 years after the official end of slavery (and I live in a fairly liberal city; I cannot fathom what it would be like to live in a southern city - and a number of ex-southerners I know have told me they moved from the south specifically to get away from a horrible society - still horrible in the 21st century).

Yes, this site deals in fantasy. But if you’ve ever had s/m scenes, you know that the fantasy can last only as long as something sparks reality in the other person and then it has to stop (it could be an action, or words - I’ve had situations where both happened, and then I have to become a therapist for 30 minutes). One has to respect that boundary for the other person.

Similarly, I’m one of those who also finds black men dominating white men very hot. I’m guessing that I find it hot because I know all too well of the history of black men in America (otherwise the black/white dichotomy would not have any meaning). As for a white dominating a black person - it’s very hard to think of such a story ignoring one’s knowledge of American history.

If it’s racist of me to think that way, so be it. America is still very traumatized by slavery - it will take a long time (e.g. perhaps another century) to overcome all those issues. I think it’s unreasonable to demand that people erase part of their knowledge and communal history.

Hi nycboot,

I don’t disagree with anything you say in your response. I have never lived in the US and I have to bow to your personal experience of the black / white dynamic there.

It’s not about what people think. Folks have the right to think what they like. I simply cannot understand the way people comment that domination in one interracial direction is okay and that in the other is not. It just perpetuates the ideas that:

  1. Black people are always victims
  2. The only people who have ever been slaves are black people

Neither of the above is true. If, as a gay black man, I have fantasies about being controlled and dominated by a white man [which I do sometimes, among other fantasies] then it seems to me that I should be able to write about it without being made to feel like I’ve committed a crime against my own community. After all, no one says of a ‘black domination’ story that its writer must be a crazy anti-white racist.

It’s a double standard, pure and simple.

So, in the politically correct, ‘allowed’ corner, we have:

Vampirism [murder by walking corpses], lycanthropy [murder by half man half wolf], blacks dominating whites, people becoming impossibly muscular and people being made into mindless, dumb slaves generally. I have not seen a single complaint against any of those on any site.

However, watch out if you decide to go for a ‘politically incorrect’ fetish, such as:

White domination of blacks, anything to do with smoking, Nazis or weight gain… None of these are ‘fashionable’ right now.

All I am saying is that such arbitrary criticisms are meaningless in the context that these are all fictional fantasies. I personally find the idea of weight gain pretty repulsive and a turn off, so I tend not to read stories that involve that fetish. What I don’t do is to gang up on writers of such stories and write negative comments that cause they and their readers to feel guilty over what gets them hard…

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Well, again, Marvyn, that’s the thing - you don’t see it that way, but clearly others do - why is that? In certain societies, there are memes or symbols which have meaning to certain people; the attempt in a story to pretend that doesn’t exist is problematic.

An example: the dog. Remember that story where the guy wants to test out his power - so he kills a dog? Clearly for many of us, a dog is not just an object, but represents feelings we involuntarily summon. “Man’s best friend” they say, but the fact is domesticated dogs are captives to humans - it’s part of who they are to search out approval and love from humans. Just a hasty review of art and literature show how for centuries and eons dogs have been seen as a symbol of unquenchable love - think back to Argos in The Odyssey (a story thousands of years old). Many of us know first hand that a connection with a dog can be a special thing. But it’s also a cultural meme - going across many cultures. So when a dog is gratuitously killed, I tend to think it’s authorial ignorance that disregards the cultural weight that has accrued to dogs.

So the idea of a white man subjugating a black man may be cool to you and others, and you have every right to compose such a story. But given American history, be assured that many people will be uncomfortable with such a scenario.

Point taken nycboot, but I also think that many people would be uncomfortable with MOST of the stories on this site… As you yourself once pointed out, the underlying trope of these stories is horror.

What I’m trying to get to here is that it isn’t really cool for any man to subjugate another, no matter what their racial background. So why do we read/write about such things? Because we get off on them, that’s why.

As I said before, you have the right to feel uncomfortable about certain stories and so do I, but I worry about the way the world is becoming more tolerant on some things and viciously intolerant of others. Not wishing to open a can of worms, but just look at the present ‘debate’ around multiple genders. From what I hear, American university campuses are becoming like police states on that topic…

I guess I’m desperately trying to defend one of my kinks here - LOL - I just worry about censorship in general, that’s all.

Hey Marvyn

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying theoretically. There is a double standard, no doubt in my mind. But I don’t have feelings of guilt for being white and any anger or resentment because I’m black. I’m not fighting and arguing at this moment for my rights and for equality in a country that obviously still treats people of colour differently.

It’s one of those things where in an ideal world, people wouldn’t get their panties in a twist over anything they read. But we don’t live in an ideal world and it’s easier not to do things that make some people uncomfortable.

The dog story is a perfect example: I don’t get why anyone was upset about that in particular, but as a result of the reaction, I just wouldn’t put someone arbitrarily hurting a dog into my story, unless it was meant to make the character reviled by the reader.

I just worry about censorship in general, that’s all.

Did you ever negotiate a scene with someone and found that their fetishes were in contradiction to yours? In such situations you can’t pretend they don’t exist. What hopefully happens is that the two (or more) parties agree to respect each other: person A can have his fetish if person B can have his.

So I suggest you (and all the readers of Gay Spiral Stories) have that same mutual respect. I don’t think anyone is censoring anything (and only Martin has the right to do so), but you just have to withstand objections from people.

Of course, I suspect only a minority of GSS readers read this forum and fewer might be reading this thread. Perhaps the solution is to have a preamble to your story stating this is your fetish and the only way we can all get along is by respecting each other.

Yes - ‘mutual respect’ is exactly what I am talking about here.

That is precisely what is lacking when people start criticising stories because they don’t happen to be ‘politically correct’ according to today’s particular zeitgeist.

Also the dog analogy worries me. People of colour in the US are not like dogs. They may have been forced into slavery for a few hundred years, but unlike dogs, they are not genetically slavish and obedient to white people. I have several African-American friends and I do not recognise the ‘whipped victim’ personality that you describe. Jamaicans, from whom I am descended, were once slaves, and are certainly nothing like that. The difference between dogs and black people is a few hundred thousand years of selective breeding set against a mere 300. Oh, and of course the small detail that one is a helpless animal and the other is a human being…

So maybe it is time folks stopped being so patronising?

In a way, this all proves my main point that this ‘political correctness’ is just another example of certain groups wishing to control others. Behind its dissembling mask, sinister thoughts apparently lurk…

Disclaimer: I’ve had some wine so I may not express myself properly :stuck_out_tongue:

I can guarantee you, Marvyn, that the vast majority of people that comment on your stories saying that white-on-black slavery makes them feel uncomfortable are American. I might be able to offer a unique perspective here because I grew up in England and have now lived in the southern United States for several years. I have learned that, culturally, the issue of race is markedly different here to what you might imagine.

It is a fundamental part of US history, and it would probably surprise you - as it did me - how much deeper the issue of racism runs here than in Britain. It is not simply a case of saying, “Well, black people are as good as white people, and all that stuff is hundreds of years in the past, so I don’t understand why people don’t just move on”.

Problem with that thinking is… it is not in the past. Unfortunately, racism still very much exists here, and it is a very tense issue for many folks. I completely understand why people would not be comfortable with white-on-black control, because racial discrimination is still far too common in the United States. They see evidence of the legacy of slavery every single day. It hits too close to home.

I’m not saying whether that is right or wrong, but I definitely understand why people feel that way.

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Thanks Swizzington - ‘in vino veritas’ as they say.

I think you are right.

Apologies to American readers out there - I guess I lacked a proper understanding of the racial dynamic in the US. I have never lived there, so I can’t claim to know what I’m talking about. Swizzington is right; the European view is very different.

Also apologies to nycboot and MonsterMash62 if my comments on the dog analogy came across as hostile - I didn’t mean it quite as strongly as it appears after I posted it [and I can’t claim alcohol as an excuse]. Sorry guys - I did not mean to imply anything about you personally.

I guess this proves that I should probably stick to writing stories rather than taking part in these discussions…

‘My bad’ as our American friends might say…

Marvyn x

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I’m a Canadian living in the US who has also lived in the UK. I can definitely attest that it’s different here and race is very much still an issue. That’s why I’ve been careful about this topic in the past.

I didn’t take any offence about the dog thing Marvyn :slight_smile:

I also wasn’t meaning to equate killing a dog with slavery. I merely meant to use it as an example of how sensitive people can be about something (whether it’s justified or not).

I keep meaning to write a story about how fickle and non-sensical people can be, similar to Wes Bracken’s Apologia from years ago. I’m just not clever enough to do it well, and too lazy lol.

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Thanks MonsterMash62 - glad you didn’t take offence.

My next story is going to be a historical one set in England involving demonic possession, so it won’t have much interracial action in it. I feel I need to give that a rest for a while…

Ignoring peoples reactions as “politically correct” seems incredibly dismissive to their honest response. The author does not decide how the reader responds, only how they will counter-react.

Just one last word on this thread: IN NO WAY was I comparing that dog (or dogs in general) to people of African descent! I brought up that analogy only to serve as an example of how an author may arouse feelings in readers that he did not anticipate.

I have a friend who’s a photographer. He has told me that there are always at least two elements to a photograph: the photograph itself, and the people who look at it. He is well aware that people always bring their selves to their observation of the photograph. That aspect, of bringing oneself to a work of art, is unavoidable. Even in the comments to your stories, Marvyn, you can see different people are excited by different aspects.

(I’ve been a little busy lately but I look forward to reading more - and eventually contributing - and I know one of my prospective stories will be politically uncorrect - and I look forward to dealing with the fallout.)

Well it looks as though I certainly provoked some debate…

In answer to T.K.Summer. I do not ‘ignore’ people’s responses to my stories. I actually take them to heart rather more than I probably should. The debate I was seeking to have centres around the fact that, in my humble opinion, certain criticisms are hard to take seriously given the context that most of the stories on here are about non-consensual mind control of one human being by another.

In answer to nycboot, I apologise if I gave the impression that I thought you were comparing black people to dogs - of course I know that you would not do that. Your comment about art is also correct. Once the art is finished, it becomes the property of the reader or view. I hope you enjoy my next story - it’s historical, which I know you like.

Marvyn x

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Can I like a whole thread? :wink:

I’m so happy that this discussion took part. The topic has always been foreign to me, and the reactions and accusations of racism felt odd and out of place. I guess my point of view was closer to Marvyn’s than to those readers. All of these posts have opened a window, a different way to see things, that I find both enriching and fascinating.

I hope that one day the USA can finally make amends with itself and its history and that all this becomes a part of a long forgiven past. In the meantime I guess that, like any other social wound that is in the process of healing, it may hurt people’s feelings everytime the subject is touched (even if slightly).


Slavery is ancient, which is why all races have both practiced and suffered slavery. And of course, in real life, slavery is immoral and forbidden. But this forum is about imagination, ideas. And there immoral can also be very sexy. Or would someone say that controlling someone else’s mind, subjugating him, is moral? So I wonder how somebody suddenly brings morality into the game, according to which blacks should not be dominated and enslaved by whites in stories. It’s only fiction. For me it’s illogical.

As the person who started this thread, I totally agree with you ‘TheGerman’. What came across to me reading the replies to my original post is that the issue of white on black slavery is too raw for many [white] Americans to stomach due to the completely fucked up race relations in their country. As the internet is presently dominated by the U.S. it being a taboo is unlikely to change in the near future. Sadly…