Story Continuations: We Are Trying Literary Necromancy

[d-boi]

Gotta be honest, that’s a terrible mentality.
We’re writing fetish and kink content online for a niche audience and most of us will never be able to make a career out of it.

In this unit’s opinion, we should be much more open for allowing fanworks based on our works.And if somoene hasn’t bothered to contribute or do anything with their story in years, then why bother protesting? Someone else clearly has ideas and wishes to work on it, so why stop them?

The issue of “ownership” is certainly worth discussing and this unit would prefer if continuations were listed in their own section with a separate owner, but nevertheless a question obviously arises.

Suppose for a moment there’s a story from 3 years ago. The writer no longer contributes and hell, hasn’t even been on the site that time.

They wrote 2 chapters.

Now, if someone elsecomes along and ends up continuing it - hell, writes MORE than the original creator - would it not be fair to transfer stewardship at that point?

[Corin]

If someone extends your story, that extension doesn’t belong to you. It belongs to the person that wrote the extension.

Just because you’ve created a setting or a universe, you don’t automatically own all stories using that setting or universe. It doesn’t work that way.

At best you own the names of characters and places within your story/universe, and that only if you’d have registered them officially.

That’s the legal part of this.

Everything else is just about honoring an author’s work. I’m totally for honoring the work of an author and not taking it away. But what we have in mind would not be taking anything away from anyone. We’d create extensions, fan-fiction in the same universe, so to say. The original, untainted story would still remain with the original author.

And on top of that, if an author explicitly states they wish that we leave their stories alone, we’ll honor that as well. But we cannot ask the authors which are no longer around, which is the vast majority of those abandoned old stories.

[MonsterMash62]

There’s a lot of discussion in this thread that is clarifying ownership of works and what legally is allowed around fan fiction. But really, that’s entirely beside the point.

The challenge should be reframed as: we’re doing a challenge where we are going to choose stories to write endings for, and we’re going to engage with the authors of the original stories to get permission for that. The end.

When/if there’s a story chosen and the author can’t be contacted, deal with it then. Maybe it won’t happen. Or maybe there will be easily explainable reasons as to why doing it with that particular story and not having the author’s consent (in that case) is acceptable and that can be explained. And/or the new story doesn’t have to be directly linked to on the page of the chosen, non-permission granting author’s original story. And the new story can be described as inspired by, etc.

Everything else is way too much discussion and drama for what doesn’t really matter.

The sticking point on all of this in terms of consent is ultimately about ownership and control for authors. Taking ownership and control away from authors in terms of any policy being communicated here is what is alarming to authors, and it’s not necessary to communicate that.

[d-boi]

Corin’s response is better than this unit’s.

Kind of funny for you to bring up GL though given that he is not the steward of Star Wars and hasn’t been for decades. THe only meaningful difference is he got paid for giving up his ownership rights and so it’s now Disney’s Star Wars, as opposed to just Disney’s Continuation of George Lucas’ The Star Wars.

[Ragnarok]

Wow!! Equating your partially completed jerk matreial to Star Wars is quite a stretch and as I mentioned before you don’t even have intellectual property rights for something that you put on a public website. Which is why the admin are being extremely generous by even asking in the first place.

I also think it’s nice that when they reach out to an author and ask think it might make sense for the author if they don’t want others to continue their story and say no. To maybe do it themselves then at this point since there’s a demand for it.

hHowever, the point is there are hundreds of stories on this site that deserve a continuation because of how good they were the first time but then the author got too busy or life happened and now those stories are just supposed to stay that way forever? Hell no!

These stories are now going to be given the chance to continue that most of us so desperately want; so if somebody as an author is vehemently opposed to this whole concept based on feedback so far you are just a drop in the bucket of content creators at this point.

So feel free to just delete your stories from the site it really isn’t going to matter to the faithful readers; because you’re obviously not doing this for the fans and in that case put your stories on Amazon and get people to buy them or a patron.

Now this may have been harsh and slightly disrespectful but I feel I’m actually being more than considerate to the disrespect that I’ve seen in this chat so far. If you just want to be loud and make waves because you feel butt hurt over something so insignificant then you you’re better off leaving the site. I myself will continue to enjoy the other author’s that remain and their content.

[Glennyboi]

Have not seen a ding dong like this since the AI debate . I was hesitant to give my thoughts, being relatively new to authoring but here goes.

Being very much a niche kink story teller was wondering if part of the concern for some people was scope and how far stories can be allowed to drift? There are hundreds of tags on the site and some people will have a firm dislike for certain tags and certain themes including authors

For example a framework perhaps whereby what ever stories are chosen , only the tags used in the original can beused. After all if a story Is beloved isn’t that a lot to do with the flavour of the story? That way any author is in two minds has that safety blanket

Perhaps another cause for anxiety is perhaps “contains AI patterns” . Could rules be put in place around that for chosen stories?

My final thought is if a story is beloved, whether finished or not, chance are it’s been the inspiration to many stories since. Maybe part of the fun of a incomplete story is using ones own imagination to think about what happens next, does it need to be in print.

Well that’s my imput. I hope I’ve not annoyed anyone

[Mafisto]

@Ragnarok

Because, as a public domain story there is no intellectual property being held so the author even though they created the concept and the initial story does not actually have the right to stop anyone else from continuing them.

Whoa , this is not true at all.

“Publicly available” and “public domain” are completely different things legally.

Posting a story on a website does not put it in the public domain. Copyright attaches automatically the moment a work is fixed in tangible form, the instant it’s written down, even in a draft. No registration and no publication required.

An author who posts an original story on their blog, on Royal Road, on AO3, wherever, holds full copyright in it, including the exclusive right to prepare derivative works. Continuations, sequels, and stories using their characters and setting are derivative works, and the author absolutely has the legal right to stop others from publishing them.

“Public domain” is a specific status. It can occur if the copyright is expired, the author deliberately dedicated it as such, or it was never copyrightable in the first place.

The legality of fan fiction is often misunderstood: continuations of copyrighted works exist all over the internet not because writers have a right to make them, but because rightsholders mostly tolerate noncommercial fanwork. Legally, most of it is unauthorized derivative work that survives on forbearance.

As an example of that, the 50 Shades of Gray was originally fan fiction for Twilight. It could NOT be published as it was, because the author of Twilight could block it at any time. So it was rewritten as its own thing that made no reference to Twilight characters and settings. That’s the only way it could legally be published.

I would advise making sure we don’t veer into directions that expose us legally. Sure, the law is only as good as its enforcement goes, and I don’t see an author deciding to sue us because we published a derivative work without their permission.

But the law does show that public things don’t belong to the public, they’re just made available to them. That’s two different things.

Someone created a continuation of my The Game story a long time ago. I didn’t like it at all, it violated my lore. I never thought of suing them for it, but I know I would have had the right to. It would just have been a very stupid move. I’m not mad it exists, just, I have my own style and I don’t think it’s easily reproducible. I prefer my stories to remain my stories.

[Mafisto]

That being said, I rewrote some stories, some with the permission of the original author, some without because I wasn’t able to locate them (“The Bus Episode”, “Screech Gets His Men”). If I got a notice from an author who didn’t give me permission, I’d take down that story immediately.

So, opt-in is the only way to go, I think, with the exception of taking a risk on very old stories whose authors have completely vanished.

[Glennyboi]

Maybe a simpler idea would like be here are four stories that are beloved on the site , read them let them inspire you to create something unique in its own right that may one day itself become just as beloved? In the same way that themes are spot lighted?

[Corin]

Note: The postings by “apatheticphoenix” who was so strongly opposed to the idea, have vanished from this thread. He asked for his account to be deleted, and the forum deleted all his posts with it.

[Rock_Creek_Werewolf]

I like the idea, especially for some stories / series that have been left for literally years without any additions (‘A Breed Apart’ by Morgan Blackthorne; Balarai’s ‘Mother May I’ series, ‘Boypussy,’ and so on.

I’m sensative that we should not ‘steel’ anothers’ work, but I feel there are a lot of authors who would appreciate the continuation that they themselves cannot perform (they may be dead, have moved on, or don’t have the time / interest now). I think this site is uniquely respectful, and will perform the proposed exercise with the needed care and respect.

[Heru_Kane]

My only thing on this is let’s not attach it to a story in a thread. But link the old story. I don’t want to read a story by an author and the next button goes to this.

Other than that I’m fine with it.

[chiboxerboi]

I was about to post something along these lines, Mafisto. Simply posting something on line does not negate one’s ownership of their work. As always, you are six chess moves (and even more creative plot points) ahead of me…still a big fan of yours!

[Wesley_Bracken]

I think it would be best to let authors flag their own incomplete works for eligibility in the contest, or at least start there. If there isn’t that much interest in it from authors, well, then that kind of tells you whether folks who post here are interested in allowing their work be the source for this kind of content. I know there’s a certain allure in pulling stories from, well, decades past at this point and offering them a new life (I would have a short list of my own) but sometimes it’s best to let things rest.

It would also help, in my opinion, to know which stories you all have in mind for the first two test runs of this. It might help folks if you provided a little more context regarding what you have in mind as an “Incomplete” story.

[Ragnarok]

Wesley is back. As somebody that was previously always one of my favorite authors I think you make a lot of sense. I also would like to hear a short list of what stories they had in mind because they never even gave us the option to submit our own suggestions.

Also the opt-in is a great idea or authors offering up their own series would be a great idea as well but I don’t think if somebody is gone from the site and does not respond to multiple attempts of communication that their story should be off limits. At that point I think it’s up to the readers if they even want their story continued.

I am also invested and interested since this was initially one of my ideas that I mentioned in the blog months ago and to see it now in action my main concern is not necessarily the stories chosen but what authors on here are even interested in continuing other author’s works?

[Wesley_Bracken]

To be fair, they want to open it up to suggestions in the third and fourth rounds, so they will eventually turn the suggestion process over to the community, but helping clarify what exactly makes a story a target for inclusion would be helpful. Are we talking about stories with several entries that petered out and are missing an ending? Stories that clearly setting up something more elaborate that just never got continued? Series which are more open ended and could be continued in a more episodic fashion? All of these ideas will attract authors of different stripes, and some will be easier to judge the quality of than others.

All this to say, I do like the idea. I like a more communal sharing of ideas and branches and things like that. I think that, going forward, it would be good to offer an option for authors to flag their story with a creative commons license attached, maybe an attribution, non commercial license, (I know the site isn’t really based in the US, but that’s the system I’m familiar with) so that other going forward, it’s less of a grey area.

[Evan_Jackson]

Some of the back and forth around the consent issue concerns me and I don’t know that the underlying concern has necessarily been addressed. Fortunately, I think there’s a way to frame this that may resolve a lot of the concern the community has been feeling around this.

Putting aside the original announcement that may have muddied the waters somewhat, I think time_to_occur has pointed out the phrasing that can do that.

If we frame it as a fan fiction contest, I think a lot of the consent concerns go away. There’s definitely no misinterpretations of stewardship or original authors having their posts added to in any official capacity. It’s honouring the original works without touching the current story series itself in a widely accepted way that isn’t claiming any sort of ownership over the precursor story.

What-if continuations after the end point seems the main crux of the challenge. Fan fiction also covers alternate universes as well. With or without the original characters.

There’s still an element of consent available where an author maybe can request fan fiction not be done if it comes down to it. Fan fiction in that regard is generally talking about using the same characters and exact setting and plot setup the original authors have set up.

Inspiration taken from their tale with the new author creating an original story is always on the cards but that’s not really what this challenge seemed to be representing. It was “direct” continuations to honour archived, popular works.

Wesley’s idea of some sort of opt-in system when submitting a story going forward is also a great option. Highlight authors and series who are default on board with a “play in my world” approach.

The community (eventually) coming together to talk about older series that didn’t continue and a chance to play in those worlds as an homage.

The winner would be more popular or creative or whatever but not any sort of official ending to the story. Stored separately to leave the original works alone, as Corin has mentioned before.

Fan fiction feels to me like a celebration of a work because of a love of it and adding one’s own creativity to the setting. That seems like the intention that prompted the idea of this challenge and I think it’s a common language that might cut through a lot of the misunderstandings around it.

At least, I hope so.

[AsisAsio]

After discussing this properly, Corin and I have decided that:

Story Continuations will not be moving forward.

The forum post will stay open in the spirit of record keeping and free discussion, and I’ll edit the original post with this update and a link to this reply.

We would have loved to try the initiative. The idea came from a genuine place: trying to honour older stories that readers still love, still remember, and still wish had reached their intended end. There are some absolute gems buried in the archive, and we wanted to see whether there was a respectful way to bring attention back to them.

That said, the discussion made it clear that this idea does not have a strong enough community mandate to proceed.

There was real support for it, especially from readers and some authors, but there was also serious concern from other authors around permission, ownership, and how their work might be treated. We severely underestimated how upsetting the idea would be to a small number of people, and the discussion became much more heated than we expected.

To be honest, some of the accusations and analogies used were not appreciated. This was never an attempt to steal anyone’s work, erase original authors, or treat stories carelessly. It was an attempt to solve a real problem in a creative way.

But if the solution risks alienating authors or making people feel unsafe sharing their work here, then it is not worth pursuing.

GKS exists because authors choose to post here. Protecting that trust matters more than testing this idea.

So, the fuchsia pink robes are going back in the cupboard.

I know some people will be disappointed, and I am too. Doing nothing does not solve the issue of beloved unfinished stories, but it is clear that this particular solution is not the right one for the community at this time.

Thank you to everyone who engaged with the idea, whether you supported it, opposed it, or suggested changes. We listened, we discussed it, and the decision is that

Story Continuations are cancelled.

[Ragnarok]

Yeah I’m incredibly disappointed and I think you should reconsider once you discuss with some of the other authors on here. If famous authors like Wesley; who I would consider a staple in the community and one of the most popular authors on here in the past thinks it’s a good idea.

Then it just needs some more hashing out. I also think you’ll find a lot of the other authors would agree as well. At least from what I saw of the few authors that have been whining have written very little to nothing of Merit compared to ones that have done dozens upon dozens of stories for this site.

I would reach out to those other authors like Locked Pig, Mcbaer, Naedre, Drake Nightstrom, Wilie Cici and others that I’ve been active on this site for years and contributed to the past challenges and in a separate forum talk to those authors.

This should not just die because a few whiny Bitches we’re louder than the community as a whole.

[Corin]

I ask everyone to remain civil and calm, please.

In the end, we had to decide whether this idea was worth losing some of the most loved stories from the site altogether. Because that was the consequence. Even granting the authors the right to veto didn’t change that. In fact, we might still lose some authors just because of what I have written in this thread.

I want the community to work together, not against each other. Sometimes I have to swallow my pride and convictions if it means saving the community from harm.