For me, MIMBO DROPS 2 falls under the category of “sequels I shouldn’t have written.” I’d written a perfectly good one-off short story and made the mistake of listening to the fans chant, “Again! Again!”
But then my fear of writing “Chap 2: And then the same thing happens to Bob” was so great here that I went so far as to change formats entirely! All in all, well written or not, I’m sorry I wrote it. The original story is a wonderful celebration of me and my straight mtn biking buddy Steve and how I used to endlessly fantasize about seducing him while we mountain-biked. (Ah, sweet memories of the summer of 2005!) But it has nothing to do with Chapter 2. (Other than the author’s meta dilemma about wanting to write an erotic cop story.)
But as you note, @Hypnothrill, it’s right before they drink the muscle growth potion that also turns them into insatiable gay sluts. (The story of my life.)
I dont know if my opinion means much coz I’m not writer but I view the stories as an artistic expression, evoking responses from its readers. Some art is challenging, oftentimes reflective, possibly representative but can be complete escapism. The critique from someone that find it uncomfortable or ‘triggering’ is valid from the individual POV but I don’t see how the writer should censor/change the work.
A disclaimer should work well without altering the integrity of the work (however early it was written), and puts the onus of being responsible of a readers own reaction toward the fiction.
Also big hugs!
Always loved reading your stories!
This conversation isn’t just for authors — everyone has a perspective that’s valid. I admit that as I’m writing, I rarely “censor” myself, tho I confess I don’t think of my stuff as all that dark, either. I try to think “is it justified within the context of the story/ reality I’m creating?” Otherwise, I don’t worry too much about it.
(Honestly, I worry more about using characters from outside my own race than violent imagery.)
This is a great discussion and I’m glad to have read it.
As a mostly side note, the original request is ridiculous because it’s not going to happen realistically ever. There is no way you’re going to be able to get an edited version of your story updated on every site that has it. My stories are posted at ten different places at least, not to mention all of the emailed copies I sent people. Am I expected to email everyone I asked for edits, send them an apology for maybe triggering them now with work from ten years ago (with some porn fiction that is inherently offensive due to the non-consensual content) and ask them to read the new slightly updated version from now on?
So is the request for you to create a new edited version to give to the requester, so that the next time they consider reading it, they get the specially handcrafted version you made just because they asked for it?
That’s a side note to the actual discussion here and I get that and don’t mean to derail. It does frustrate me when people ask for silly things without considering what they are actually asking for, how you’d go about fulfilling the request, and what it will cost you (time, effort and money effectively).
Off the top of my head I think I liked the second part better as well. Actually I thought it was good that the cop was such a horrible homophobic person because then it feels better that he gets his comeuppance, you know what I mean?
I do think the trigger warnings when they first came out were maybe used more thoughtfully. For example if someone is a rape survivor and they work that out by writing a fanfic about dealing with that and it’s in the setting of Harry Potter, that’s a legit coping activity for them. But the average Harry Potter fanfic reader isn’t going to expect a rape scene, even where the character uses their Patronas to fight off the attacker. So a trigger warning for something like that is perfectly reasonable.
When you’re dealing with a particular genre that can include mind control, horror, or other dangerous things like that, then I think it’s more about just indexing/tagging the story so the reader gets what they’re expecting reasonably.
Well, that brings up the idea that I know what triggers people. I confess to not even remembering the scene that triggered the reader – I had to reread the story and refresh myself.
I can’t predict what MIGHT upset people – if I did, I’d never write anything out of fear.
Everybody, SING:
Oh, the terrible thing about triggers
Is triggers are terrible things
They’ll stop you from reading 'bout rubber
Or bottoms all trapped in their slings!
They’re flimsy whimsy, daft and dimsy,
Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb!
Cuz when you spend all your time fearing triggers,
You’ll never ever cum!
You’ll ne…ver ever cum!
I dunno, I think that there are common triggers and we can reasonably be expected to know that certain kinds of things deserve content warnings. On the GSS server, think of the Unsettlingly Perverse channel. We recognize that there are things that might feel difficult for people to encounter. It doesn’t sit quite right with me as an author to throw up my hands and say, “it can’t be helped!”
Also, it’s not about not writing the content for sure, it’s definitely about flagging it. At least for me. And it can come after as part of the editing process, like just after checking for typos and before posting, or as part of posting. The tag system on GSS is pretty robust.
Looking at that University of Michigan list of content warnings you provided, I would personally find it hilarious if all the stories on GSS that contained “Classism” or “Sexism and misogyny” or “Body hatred and fat phobia” were labeled as such.
Not all content warnings are appropriate to every situation but an imperfect solution and allowance for making missteps seems better than abdicating responsibility entirely and not doing anything.
Our content warnings don’t have to look like an academic list but I would argue for us not to be apathetic.
I say all this only because the question was asked at the start of this thread. Obviously people are free to do what they want.
The questioning of it is interesting when you look at the list that way though. It’s interesting that that’s the case!
In a college setting, trigger warnings can definitely serve an important purpose, because the “triggering” reading might be a required text for a mandatory course. But the readers who come to GSS, a site that could practically be renamed “Mindrape Central,” are under no pressure to come here, and if they’re very easily triggered by stories about sexual violence, then there are many other erotic fiction sites they might turn to instead. So I don’t feel a particular moral responsibility to warn psychologically fragile readers of everything they might encounter if they read one of my stories.
I mean, lots of kinky people are also survivors of some kind of violence, sexual or otherwise. And hypnosis features heavily on this site, which doesn’t have to be non-consensual. There are actually not a ton of hypnosis-focused, gay erotica sites out there. Turns out it’s a bit of a niche. Just to provide a counter point.
I think this is a matter that should be up to author discretion and common sense. I’ve had online friends admonish me or cut off ties after I’ve admitted to having a mind-control kink at all, since in their minds it’s another form of assault. So I think right off the bat, people who come to this website should be prepared for stories to go to some dark places. If you happen across a story where the author gives a warning about a certain subject, fine. If a writer doesn’t give trigger warnings and it bothers you, maybe it’s a sign that you’re not in that author’s target audience.
Most of the stories here have a strong nonconsensual element, so I can understand the sentiment that rape-related trigger warnings probably are not necessary.
But I agree that considering content warnings should always be a part of the editing process.
For instance, I had a story where the protagonist is ordered in court to remove religious garments. I added content warnings for this because I don’t think any reader would have expected it otherwise, (the story in general does not revolve around religious garments) and that’s an event that, for some people, is strongly related to trauma.
I also added a content warning for workplace harassment in another story. Why would I do this, on a website where degradation and coercion is plentiful and should be expected? Well, because I specifically included a scene where the protagonist’s boss exposes and forces himself onto the protagonist - and I specifically talk about how the protagonist feels about this (e.g. he feels like he has to do it because he can’t lose the job, and no one will believe his accusations). I’m sure this scene was enjoyed by most readers, but a scene like that could be very triggering for someone who has actually been in that situation or something similar - because stuff like that does happen. I know that, to an extent, such coercion can probably be assumed by the #office tag, but my concern was that that scene would be too specific and real for some people to enjoy, even if they are usually into that kind of fantasy.
At the end of the day, I do believe this site should be “read at your own risk”. I’ve had my share of reads on this site and others where I thought I would be into it, and then a few chapters in there was some mutilation or filth that I couldn’t handle - and I certainly don’t blame the authors for that. But as an author, I do want to take care of my readers to the best to my ability, and that includes warnings when I think it’s appropriate.
The way i see it there are two basic ways to use triggering concepts/tropes: motivated and unmotivated.
Motivated means you’re using it on purpose and with intent. Hypnothrill’s story where he purposefully invoked police brutality comes to mind. You’re using a specific event or theme to make a point or provoke a certain reaction. The reaction is the intent. (Note: Just because you’re doing it on purpose doesn’t mean you’re doing it well, but that’s true with most writing.) In this case, as long as its tagged correctly, my response might be “i’m sorry this triggered you, but i had something i wanted to say/ personally process and i put up the warnings i thought were appropriate.”
Unmotivated means you’re not trying to make a point or don’t even realize you’re using triggering content. You write this thing because you think its neat or your kink, but you weren’t trying to make a statement. Maybe you saw someone else using it and wanted to try it yourself. That’s OK and it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with how good or well written a story is. However, if i got a ton of pushback i might add trigger warnings or even take it down and try again. After all, that wasn’t the intent; it was an accident.
I do think the stories you mentioned fall into a different category, in that they’re relatively old. In some cases they’re only up for archival purposes. It’s obviously not feasible to rewrite them or take out the triggering content. If possible i’d (personally) try to put up content warnings and note that the story is old, but if like Hugh your stuff is everywhere that’s not feasible. In those cases i’d just handle it on a case by case basis as people come to you and say “I’m sorry but the air is the air, what can be done?”
And the truth is when you post things in a public space people are going to react. Its not that they’re more sensative or “psychologically fragile”, they just have different metrics. Let them have their reactions. It doesn’t make you a bad writer or bad person. Its hard to not take personally, but these types of reactions are nothing new, and completely natural.
Yes, it is – you just don’t share my sense of humor on this topic.
I don’t think that at all. Let me make my position on this topic clear: I don’t care – I think it’s ridiculous. I put subject tabs on my stories to give the reader an idea of what’s inside, but other than that, it’s on them. If they don’t like it, oh well, hopefully you’ll find something else. I think the whole idea of “triggering” is indulgent. Are you really that emotionally fragile that you can’t handle a story? Don’t read it.
I don’t like slasher movies – they upset me to the point where I can’t sleep for days after seeing one – nightmares, the whole thing. So to solve this problem, I don’t see slasher movies – I don’t go to scary movies in general, but NEVER slasher movies. I know they upset me, so I avoid them.
But I’m not going to tell the maker of a slasher movie that they have a responsibility to soften the movie for me, or to even warn me of the movie’s content. It’s a slasher movie – I know what it is!
I write mind-control stories – terrible things happen in them. If you don’t like what I write, read someone else – I don’t care. As far as I’m concerned, my responsibility ends with subject tags, which I use!
I said this earlier in the thread, but triggering refers SPECIFICALLY to people who have reactions to content because of PTSD and related trauma. Its not about people who have weak stomachs or just think somethings icky. No one is going to seriously argue that a combat vet or victim of sexual assault is more emotionally fragile than your average person. And they DO go out of their way to avoid triggers, like firework shows or shows with asexuals violence like Game of Thrones.
But often, especially with stories your friends are never going to read there is no one who can tell then what’s in the story. If i go to a movie there are summaries, reviews, trailers, and yes, content warnings. And the genre is much more well defined. I’d argue mind control isn’t a genre, its a tool/ trope that can be used over many genres and types of stories. I know what’s in a slasher movie in ways i don’t know what’s in a story on this site because the range of topics and genres can range from romance to action to horror. If you went to a Marvel movie or rom com you’d be equally pissed if it turned into a hard core slasher film with no warning.
If you believe that you’re doing every thing you’re responsible than that’s fine. I’d say subject tags are pretty good and often indistinguishable from content warnings or trigger warnings. But please, please don’t make fun of people or call them weak for wanting to avoid reliving trauma.
I think everyone’s going to have a different opinion on this. Personally, I don’t believe in “trigger warnings” per se, but at the same time, I do think it’s appropriate to make sure people have some idea of what to expect in your story. My solution, when I can’t do it via the description or tags, is to include a foreword that discusses what will be in the story if it’s something I think people might want to know about in advance (e.g., a turn-off or material that may be unexpectedly hard to handle).
Of course, one of the inherent problems with trigger warnings or forewords or whatever else is that the warning itself could be triggering! For some, even mention of the topic will be triggering, so there’s no sure-fire way to handle these situations. Do what you think best, and the rest is inherently up to the reader to deal with.
but I view the stories as an artistic expression, evoking responses from its readers. Some art is challenging, oftentimes reflective, possibly representative but can be complete escapism. The critique from someone that find it uncomfortable or ‘triggering’ is valid from the individual POV but I don’t see how the writer should censor/change the work.