Another underage discussion

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The story ‘A Typical Day At The Tillman’s’ by AnonDog - Gay Kinky Stories has started a comment thread where the user “ex-top” complained that if you read the story carefully and do some maths, it looks like the protagonist is just 15 years of age.

I’ve shown my unhappiness with this comment in no uncertain words. After a short exchange @Feed_Your_Head has written this comment:

Excuse me, but this whole interaction is very rude. Even if the character isn’t being “written as a child,” he’s still, in the context of the story, underage (and not 17, but 14/15), and people are well within their rights to question and dislike that. “Underage” is not a subjective term–it means, at least in the United States, “under 18,” and Romeo and Juliet laws aside, full-grown adults having sex with anyone under the age of 18 is illegal. Yes, I know it’s a fantasy website that crosses FAR more taboos than that, but the issue of sex with minors is one that people are right to be passionate about–ESPECIALLY at a time when the biggest cudgel being waged against the LGBTQIA+ community is accusations of grooming and pedophilia.

Look, I know I personally come to this site to get away from all of the seriousness of the world, and I bet others do, too. Politics are frustrating, especially when you’re trying to get off, and I don’t like thinking about that kind of thing when I’m going at it. But ex-top was right to point out the underage nature of the story and raise concerns. And I think that the owner of the site–who is responsible for its content–might be a little more sensitive to the issue than rudely dismissing someone with “Good idea.”

Those are my thoughts, such as they are. Thank you for reading!

First of all, I appreciate your calm tone and please don’t take any of this personally.

You have to understand that I’m really fed up with this discussion. It comes up at least once a year. Check older forum postings to find these previous discussions.

There are several issues I have with this topic, and most of them, I’ve already explained many times before:

  • The US is not the center of the world. Stop applying US law to the whole world. Even if we were talking about consent, the age of consent is 16 in Germany and many other countries have similar laws. I don’t care about the - in my pov - idiotic and puritanistic laws of the USA.

  • There are most certainly millions of consensual sexual acts involving people under the age of 18 every single day all over the world. But you really want to ban writing and publishing stories about this? Something which is simply a fact of life and even legal in almost all places? And the same people don’t have a problem with other stories which clearly depict illegal and horrible events? One word: Hypocrisy.

  • Even if a story would be about non-consensual acts against a person under 18: Does it really make a difference to you whether the person abused against their will is 18 or 16? WHY? Again, hypocrisy.

  • The reason why this particular case and comment irked me even more than usual and made me write a rather harsh comment: The original commenter had to go the extra step to analyze the text in detail and do some maths, to even come to the conclusion that there’s a person below 18 involved. He had to actively look hard to find some offense, even though that protagonist is clearly written as being mature. That, again, reeks of hypocrisy and US-centered righteousness. Sorry to be so blunt.

The rules on these sites have been clear for ages. My personal stance on the topic is, that I don’t judge ANY kind of text and fantasy. Because I cannot curate one immoral fantasy (which these sites are full of) while condemning other ones or their authors. Also, in general, I make it a rule not to judge people for their fantasies (which - especially when it comes to sex - they didn’t choose to have), I judge people for their acts only.

Having said that, there are still rules and stories I don’t want to publish on my sites for various reasons. One of them is that I don’t want to encourage people to rape (anyone, not just minors) or give templates on how to do that. Another one is, that I despise hard and gory violence.

And finally, a third thing I just don’t want to read is how people get aroused by physical attributes that are clearly belonging to pre-puberty persons, like pre-voice break, ball-less scrotums, dry orgasms, or women with totally flat breasts etc.

(Note, however, that short, slender, and hairless bodies are all attributes you find on fully-grown men, too!)

That’s why we have the rule that all protagonists have to be “sexually mature”, meaning that their sexual organs and bodies have to be developed fully. But this is not related to any given numeric age - there are boys at the age of 13, which are already fully developed sexually, while others struggle with their voice breaking even above the age of 16.

Again, this is NOT about consent, which is what the law is all about! Only the site’s rule against realistic rape, however, prohibits any kind of story where a guardian or older person coerces a person way too young to give consent - but again, that’s a totally different issue.

But this doesn’t even apply to the story in question, because even if you assume that the son in the story is actually just 15, it’s him who’s basically raping his dad (in a totally fantastical setting, mind you!).

I hope this will suffice for some time to make people understand why the rules are what they are. I also want to remind people, that my sites are actually among the more restricted ones. Other sites like nifty, MCStories and Gay Authors are way less restrictive than I am.

Feel free to comment on this here. This is the place to voice your issues and (dis)agreements with me and the sites, not the stories’ comment section.

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I’m not weighing in on this discussion. I just wanted to make you aware - since you referenced being more restrictive than MCStories, Martin - that the guy who runs that site updated his policy a year or two ago to no longer allow stories with under 18s in most situations. If I remember correctly, at the time he said something about “legal reasons”:

I no longer accept stories involving characters under the age of 18 in sexual situations. The characters must be unambiguously over 18, and I will be interpreting what constitutes “sexual situations” quite liberally

https://mcstories.com/FAQ.html

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If you really read too deep into any of the stories on this site, you’re sure to find something that will upset you. I did a quick read through of that particular story and the only thing I didn’t like is that it includes intimate details about a woman (but that’s an entirely different conversation). Your rules have always been clear and concise in regards to what you do and do not allow in the stories. I wouldn’t let comments like that get under your skin. Some folks will just always find something to be angry about. When there have been questionable stories posted, you are quick to nip them in the bud and have them removed.

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I’ve read stories that upset me many times. I just have to remember that this is fantasy and not real life.

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I had a lot of thoughts on this when I saw Feed Your Head’s comment come by in the comments section. I’m glad this got converted into a forum thread because I agree it’s a better way to have this conversation… Otherwise AnonDog’s comment section would have gotten really out of hand.

  • Feed Your Head, I agree with Martin that this story (“A Typical Day at the Tillman’s”) is a particularly strange example to flag for concern of underage characters. Drew is, explicitly, a normal college student. It felt clear to me that the author simply hadn’t thought through the math when they’d also written “Drew’s parents got married fifteen years ago, and then had Drew a few years into their marriage.” Like, if you follow that math, Drew isn’t fifteen — he’s twelve. A… twelve-year-old college freshman, apparently, which is pretty ludicrous. Except he’s obviously not twelve, he’s obviously just a regular college student, and the writer simply goofed. I mean, look. I’ve read plenty of stories where authors accidentally write a week that lasts nine days, or forget a character’s eye color and change it between chapters. I don’t assume that the story thus takes place in a universe with nine-day weeks, or that the character has magic eyes… I read the context clues and assume the author made a continuity error.

  • I want to call out one part of your post in particular, since it bothered me.
    It is not the LGBTQIA+ community’s responsibility to ‘prove bigots wrong’ when they fabricate accusations of grooming and pedophilia as a convenient political cudgel.
    It is not Jewish people’s responsibility to ‘prove’ antisemites wrong.
    It is not black people’s responsibility to ‘prove’ racists wrong.
    Nothing we ever say or do will be enough to ‘prove’ bigots wrong. We could be the most staid and sexless Stepford gays on the planet, and they would still jeer and call us groomers and pedophiles and sexual predators. Policing ourselves and overcorrecting and trying to be a model minority, all in an effort to ‘prove bigots wrong’, is a self-immolating strategy.
    I think we should be able to have conversations about site policy without capitulating to narratives that our worst enemies fabricate about us.

  • I agree that Martin could have handled this more gracefully in the moment, even as I do understand why Martin was short with “ex-top”, since this topic has come up previously and sometimes in really bad faith. Of course, that’s not something “ex-top” could have known… I do suspect Martin was not having a great day (see: the Sponsus announcement) and “ex-top”'s comment was perhaps the last straw. But, Feed Your Head, I did interpret your comment as mainly reacting to Martin’s tone, though I disagreed with much of the stuff you said around that main point. I think there was probably a better way to push back on Martin’s tone than this.

  • I do think that citing that “the age of consent in the USA is 18” to support your points is a poor idea, considering that (a) Martin is German so why are you citing USA laws at him, and (b) the age of consent is not universally 18 even in the USA. Saying “in the United States, full-grown adults having sex with anyone under the age of 18 is illegal” is both factually wrong and also a weird thing to tell a German man as justification for why he should take your approach.

  • Personally, I am happiest reading erotica where characters are implicitly 18 or over — preferably older. Personally, I even get uncomfortable with stories where the characters are 18+ but they act very teenager-y or immature. I bounce off those stories hard, even though they’re ‘technically’ appropriate. My own discomforts get in the way of me being able to read them. At the same time, I do not think we should be writing site policy over my personal gut discomforts. We need to be able to articulate site policy to account for a wide range of stories, considering that there are a lot of kinks on this site that play with mental state, physical transformation, etc… It can get murky real fast.
    Martin’s approach to the site rules has been consistent and clearly-articulated. And there’s visibly a fair amount of thought behind his approach too. Yes, there are stories on every erotica site which I am uncomfortable with, but there are also sites where the site’s approach makes me uncomfortable too. (See: Nifty.) I haven’t felt uncomfortable with Martin’s approach, because I understand what he’s going for, and I can follow his thinking on how he’s set up the borders of what is and isn’t permissible. And the result has been a site that I’m comfortable browsing. Of course, that’s just my own personal feeling, but I’m sharing it in case it’s a helpful perspective.

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I don’t understand the argument. What is illegal (in certain places) is “full-grown adults having sex with anyone under the age of 18”, not writing about it. Why would writing a story about someone doing something illegal be bad? And this vague “raising concerns”? Concerns about what? If you say, I have concerns that x, y z will happen because this story exists and can be read, people at least can argue that it’s bullshit or it’s valid. It’s like that dreadful word “problematic”. Laws do not exist in a context-free vacuum. They exist to prevent bad things from happening. A “full-grown adult having sex with someone under the age of 18” could, in certain cases, be a bad thing. But no one is having real sex with a real person here. The law is not relevant here because what it exists to prevent (non-consentual sex with real life minors) is not even at play. And why should certain illegal acts not be written into stories while other types of illegal acts can? Another thing is that if this story was about pedophilia, it would contain things that appeal to that type of attraction, mainly describe the victim in terms that reflect the fact that they haven’t reached puberty yet. So, you can express “concerns” about “problematic” things all you want, but don’t expect people to take that seriously unless you’re prepared to prove an actual harm is being committed, and not through 6 degrees of indirection. Everything is dangerous and potentially harmful, if we stopped doing them, we wouldn’t be living. Real harm directly resulting from an action is one thing, but just vague “maybe this or that might do harm if such and such occured…” does not cut it. This new trend at thought control will have to stop.

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CONTENT WARNING: Mentions of statutory r*pe and abusive relationships

Hello, everyone! Since I was the person who got this thread started, I figured I’d better share my thoughts. Thank you, @Corin, for the space to do so. And rest assured I don’t take any of the comments personally. I hope you will do the same. :slight_smile:

  • First and foremost, I want to acknowledge @Nu-and-the-Nus, because you hit the nail on the head. On the whole, I wasn’t responding to the content of the story–I was responding to Martin’s reply to ex-top: “Why do you care?” (when ex-top first pointed out the error) and “Sounds good!” (when ex-top decided to leave). As you say, the character’s age in the Tillmans’ tale is likely an oversight in the author’s math. What upset me was how Martin spoke rather dismissively to ex-top and acted like people who care about age of consent are being overly sensitive and puritanical. I can only speak from my own experience, but a dear friend of mine was trapped in an abusive relationship with a man nearly twice his age who had gone to jail for the statutory rape of two sixteen-year-old boys. And the arguments being presented here–“It’s just a number, what’s the big deal?,” “They were old enough to know better,” “16 is practically an adult”–are the exact same things I heard to justify that man’s actions. So yes, I do get very defensive around that.
    All that being said, Martin very clearly had a rough day and isn’t normally that brusque. I figured something was up. But at the same time, I wanted to call it out because of how dismissive the tone of the response was.

  • This speaks to a wider point that was made a few times in the thread: no, I don’t believe that all stories about underage sex and pedophilia should be banned. Being able to tell those stories is what allows people to know the signs and prevent it from happening. I do, however, think that stories about underage sex and pedophilia should be banned on a website designed for sexual gratification. As you say, this story ISN’T that, but it’s served as a spark for the conversation, and I’m grateful for that. @Mafisto that’s my response to “why should certain illegal acts not be written into stories”–you have to draw a line somewhere, and I’m VERY happy with the line being “no children.”

  • Want to briefly touch on “Why do you get upset about sex under age 18 and not the other things that happen on this site?” Two reasons. One: as I mentioned above, I have a personal connection with statutory rape, so it makes me more upset than other things. And two: for me personally, it’s about realism. If a story is about a pack of demons being summoned because someone ejaculated on a ruby, or people with natural psychic abilities brainwashing others and being foiled by super-genius tech glasses (hi, @anon82067173!), then I can very easily say “Oh, this is all just pretend.” But when a story leans more into a realistic tone–and the Tillmans’ story did, at least in my perspective–then I start getting nervous about it.

  • Speaking of “the conversation,” this goes back to @Corin: yeah, this happens every year in my online communities, too, usually around Pride Month. Some troll starts posting about how “minor-attracted persons” should be included in the LGBTQIA+ community and all such rot. And it does get very tiring. It must be frustrating to have to deal with the same conversation over and over. I am sorry to upset you with it!

  • Also want to touch on @Nu-and-the-Nus’s VERY accurate point about not capitulating to anti-LGBTQIA+ bullies. It’s very accurate. I’m realizing now that this was another response to Martin’s dismissiveness–I was upset to hear someone say “Why do you care?” when there’s a very, VERY big reason to care in the United States right now. That also ties into my own Ameri-centrism, which is a flaw: I tend to read stories from an American lens because I am from the U.S., and the story in question seemed to be written by a U.S. person, too. In the United States, there are countless teens and kids across the country who are suffering because of anti-LGBTQIA+ book/education/expression bans in schools–bans that are fueled and supported by the “groomer” narrative. As I said in the original comment, this is a place of fantasy, and it’s nice to get away from that. But seeing someone say age and consent “isn’t a big deal, why do you care?” hit a sore spot for me.

All told, I do agree with what Nutiper said: I prefer the stories where the characters are either stated to be over 18 or implicitly are (“Been out of college for five years”). I also agree with him in that a person’s own personal experiences should NOT be allowed to dictate what others can and cannot enjoy, and furthermore that Martin has done a great job moderating the site. What I really wanted to call out was the way that the question of sex with minors was treated: as something easily dismissed because “16 and 18 are just different numbers.” Yeah, they are, and I agree that someone hitting 18 on the calendar doesn’t magically make them a full-grown adult. But I don’t think it’s wrong to say that stories of adults having sex with underage people need to be more closely examined than any other.

Those are my thoughts, such as they are. Thank you all for the opportunity to share them. :slight_smile: And @Corin–you’re an amazing moderator! :smiley:

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I want to point out that @Corin does ban stories about pedophilia. In the first version of my story The Lake, the protagonist had just reached puberty and gotten his powers because of that, like Carrie. He was the controller. But Martin refused it because he was not a sexually active teenager. It didn’t really matter to the story, so I made him 18, and that’s the version that is published here. So there is a hard line here about pre-puberty and not yet sexually active characters. The gray area between those and the stricter « no character under 18 » is one that can be argued both ways. Age of consent is a bit meaningless in stories where the kink is mostly non-consensual and the point of these stories is to indulge in the fantasy of doing immoral things we would not do in real life. And my point stands that using the law, or in fact a law specific to one country, that is not about stories but about real life, is not very relevant.

You mention Martin’s attitude, but there is also an attitude that comes when that argument is accompanied by a certain preachiness as if the person arguing was the arbiter of what is and is not moral. It’s very common today and very grating. I’m not accusing anyone of that, and I haven’t read the comments, but it’s something important here. Martin has stated very clearly in the past that he accepts stories in that gray area and he gave his reasons. So he can’t keep having to repeat that over and over again. It’s ok to say you are bothered by that decision and those stories but just don’t read them. Everything that you might believe about scrutinizing stories for such and such criteria is your own belief. But you may try to convince others that they should care about it, that’s fine. I, for myself, am tired of being told by people what I should care about if I want to be a « good » person.

I am not saying you are doing any of that, just pointing that behavior out in general.

If your point was really just, 1) be nicer even to those who harp on things that have already been established (like this site accepts the gray area of underage), 2) you personally prefer stories with characters 18+, and 3) you have a personal belief that stories in the gray area are detrimental to society, I am fine with all that and glad to know that about you. Thanks for sharing it.

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I do agree that Martin got short with that comment because the commentor had to go through so many mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that that story included an underaged character. That comment was screaming SJW which is a common thing in North America right now.

As a side note, its funny to me that these people are using their time and energy to advocate for underage sex laws on a gay fiction site instead of actually trying to make a difference out there in society.

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First of all, thank you all for that great, civilized discussion. This is amazing, and I can’t be any happier about this community.

Secondly, I know I came across as rather harsh in my initial posting in that story’s comment thread. I don’t want to explain myself with the excuse of “having had a bad day”. As some people in this thread already pointed out, I’m really annoyed by the people in the community trying to teach other people about their perceived morality. And each time that happens I get less patient with them.

Many gay people still seem to have loads of internalized guilt. Just because there are people who still keep repeating that abhorrent claim that all homosexuals are pedophiles and sodomists, some people seem to think they have to make it extra clear that they absolutely and most certainly are not attracted to any person that could be remotely underage.

One might even get the impression that there is some overcompensation going on. Sound familiar? Just like how closeted gays get to be the worst self-hating homophobes?

But that’s absolutely bollocks. People keep confusing two very important things: consent for intimacy and sexual attraction.

Consent is vital for any kind of interaction between real persons. And if there’s a gap in age and/or power, there cannot be consent. Period. So there is simply no way to have a consensual relationship between an older person and a minor or between persons where one has power over the other.

And these rules apply to any kind of relationship, straight, gay, or anything else.

As I keep repeating, if there are no real persons, there cannot be any need for consent. It’s just that simple. In a murder story you also don’t ask whether the victim has consented to be killed by the murderer, do you? Still, the story itself, writing or enjoying reading it, is certainly not morally questionable, even if the acts described there are.

So we are allowed to enjoy stories containing morally questionable content. And yes, even if there is some sexual stimulation while reading such a story. Just get over that self-imposed guilt.

However, I don’t deny that there is some danger in stories, if they glorify immoral acts, especially if you could actually implement those acts in real life. Some people might get the wrong idea and act out that fantasy. And that’s where the author of such a story and the website which is publishing it starts to have some responsibility.

And that’s exactly the reason for the rules I’ve put in effect. No realistic rape, no realistic description of how guardians or people in power coerce or abuse the persons they’re in charge of.

But that’s it. Other than those rules, all people involved just have to be post-puberty. As fictional characters cannot give consent and these sites are all about dubious consent anyway, the “age of consent” is simply not an issue whatsoever. Anything else would be mind-boggling hypocritical.

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Yeah, that doesn’t actually happen. Way to fall for right-wing talking points hook line and sinker.

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I don’t really have the energy to reply in detail to the posts that came after @Feed_Your_Head’s response (which, Feed_Your_Head, I did appreciate and thought was very well-articulated, thank you for taking the time to write it and share it!!).

I’ll try to respond to those later posts anyway, because it feels a bit ugly to leave them to standing as they are in this thread that was otherwise started with good intentions.

@Rad_Pits, “ex-top” was not a “SJW” who went through “mental gymnastics” to advocate “underage sex laws on a gay fiction site”.
If you look at their actual comment, and the conversation two other users had around his comment, the conversation was in fact pretty innocuous.
The whole conversation amounted to “the stated age of Drew is apparently 15 or younger, and that made me uncomfortable, so maybe the author could fix that since it’s clearly a continuity error?”
We already have many readers on the site who struggle to enjoy a story if there are too many typos, for example. Everyone reads stories in different ways, and just because my experience of reading isn’t interrupted by typos or continuity errors doesn’t mean this is universal. I understand where someone is coming from when they say a story was hard to read because of how much typos bother them — just as I understand why someone dislikes eating a meal with cilantro in it, or why someone might be bothered by strong scents.

If you look at what “ex-top” was saying — and if you don’t interpret his words from the most paranoid lens possible — he was essentially just asking about this.
The stated age was different from the apparent age, and it was essentially a continuity typo. It jarred the reading experience for him, and possibly touched a nerve of discomfort, too.
His comment also happened to touch a nerve for Martin, due to past context that “ex-top” would not have had any idea about. Martin’s response touched a nerve for some other people as well, for reasons Martin couldn’t have known about either. So it goes.
But if you actually look at what “ex-top” was saying, and the initial conversation around his comment, I struggle to follow how you managed to go from the actual conversation all the way to “screaming SJW”.
It feels on my end like you made up a person to be mad about?

I guess I just struggle to understand why we’re using some relatively innocuous moments in this earlier conversation to start saying things like “and see, this is the perfect example of a larger symptom of what’s wrong with the world these days!” when the example itself doesn’t exist as described.

It’s odd to me when the perspective that is being presented (“SJWs are at it again!”) isn’t even supported by the actual example at all. And I wonder what the purpose was of bringing this into the conversation at all.

@Mafisto, I know we won’t agree and will probably be talking right past each other. But in terms of what you’ve been sharing in this thread, I question where exactly you are getting your news from, and how much you’ve looked into the scenarios you are describing asides from reading about them via a curated dripfeed.

I beg you to think a little harder whether these demonic teachers who you’re describing exist en masse as a systemic problem, or whether you’re reacting to a couple of sensationalized examples taken out of context — and I beg you to consider whose political goals are served when you accept this type of sensationalized and exaggerated perspective.

Because, also, you saying this:

…feels far more like it capitulates to anti-gay far-right talking points than anything Feed_Your_Head inadvertently implied.

It falls much further into the bigot’s trap if you accept that “well, the rumors that gays are pedos and groomers must have come from somewhere rational”. And framing it as “it’s those crazy universities indoctrinating the youths!” implies that the solution is simply “fix whatever I decided is wrong with teachers these days, and then those pesky rumors about gays being pedos and groomers will just go away!”

Conservative enclaves in the USA and far-right governments in other countries never stopped saying that we’re pedos and groomers.

They’ve been saying it consistently for decades and decades. I grew up in an enclave of people saying this all the time. My parents said this all the time. The country we immigrated from has made it their official policy about gay people for years.

Reasonably, the fact that far-right politics has increasingly taken over the mainstream of the conservative movement in the USA is a significantly sounder explanation of why this ‘pedos and groomers’ shit has become mainstream again. Hate and fear is a convenient political cudgel when you have little else left to use.

It does us no favors to fall for their ever-shifting justifications of a canard that is older than anyone on this forum.

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I see it a bit differently actually. His comment was:

“If the parents have only been married for 15 years and the son came after the wedding, that makes Drew 14, 15 at most. Which makes things a bit icky.”

That “icky” part triggered me, as well as the fact that he had to read carefully to make sure that Drew hadn’t been born before their parents married (yes, that does actually happen :slight_smile: ). I’m still not sure if that’s even clearly mentioned in the story originally (the author has since edited it because of the controversy).

I don’t want to make too big a fuzz out of ex-top. He might be a great guy otherwise, and I know that many people in the community (and especially on the Discord server) would share his view.

But it still irks me just the wrong way, for reasons I’ve already written enough about.

About @Mafisto’s comment: I don’t know how things are in the US, but I don’t believe his fears are actually warranted. There is some truth, though, that some people just take things a step too far. Like insisting to purge or rewrite older literature.

And also because people are no longer allowed to have any kind of critical opinion about the trans policy without becoming their absolute enemy that needs to be canceled absolutely - and even take it so far as to call for boycotts and threaten people who don’t follow that call (-> JKR and Hogwarts Legacy).

So, yes, that problem is real. Extreme positions on one side tend to create even more extremism on the other side. That’s why extreme positions are NEVER good, even if the intention is good.

The way to hell is paved with good intentions (German saying).

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Oh 100%, I definitely see how his initial comment came across. For me it was the comments right after (aka his additional comment + the two other initial commenters, I mean) that added to my perspective, and led me to interpret it more generously. But I understand why you reacted how you did!

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Good afternoon, all! I thought I’d toddle over and see what is happening. Thank you all for the replies! :slight_smile:

In order:

@Mafisto: I think you were right on the money when you helped boil down my points in your last paragraph. I agree that moralizing and trying to be an arbiter of what OTHER people can do because of YOUR views is wrong. That being said, though, I sometimes struggle to reconcile that attitude with what I think is the important work of calling out transphobia/homophobia/racism/sexism/what-have-you when you see it coming up. I don’t mean deliberately looking for those things in innocuous places and shouting about it, mind (“That commercial had a straight couple, it’s heteronormative, this is oppression!”, for example); I mean when people post and share things that have a more deliberately prejudiced tint and may not know it (to give an example, someone saying “Me love you long time” as a compliment when it’s a racist meme from a movie). I do think that we have a responsibility to call out problems when we see them, which is different from imposing your will on other people, if that makes sense.
Building on that last point, I’d appreciate it if you could share some examples of what you mean by “really weird things or unproven theories” and “nonsense they dreamt up the night before” because I’m confused by that. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s about gender, based on the context clues of your later paragraph. I’ll say that gender being nonbinary has been established for over two thousand years around the world (I did a big research project on that for Pride Month this year!). Also, I know several teachers/educators (including one wonderful person who IS nonbinary and uses “Mx.” as their honorific), and they’ve explained that their own method of explaining gender at a young age is saying “Well, some people are boys, and some are girls, and some are in between. Just because you have those parts doesn’t mean you’re that thing, and you’ll know when you’re ready.” That’s it. What kind of examples have you heard? :slight_smile:

@Rad_Pits: You also got to the heart of a big question for me! Thank you. Although I must say that–surprise, surprise–I don’t like binaries. :stuck_out_tongue: (I’m a cis man myself, but I know a LOT of trans and non-binary people.) It’s possible to “use your time and energy” to have a discussion about this topic AND try to make a difference through things like attending protests/writing to politicians/sharing articles/supporting others/etc. For me personally, there’s really nowhere else TO discuss the topic of consent and age-gap relationships–it kind of kills a party to come in and say “So, about underage laws…” because so much of the conversation has been derailed. It’s nice to have a space to hash it out. The question you answered connects to Martin’s point, so I’ll continue there!

@Corin: Thanks for so clearly outlining the site’s policy and unequivocably stating the vital nature of consent and inability to minors to have it! It’s awesome. What you say about “stories having power” is also the question I was getting to in my response to Rad_Pits: why DO I care so deeply about fictional tales? I think it’s because of what you said: that, in my opinion, fiction relates to and reflects the world around it, even in unexpected ways. And very often we model our understanding of that world through the stories we absorb, especially at a young age. That’s especially important regarding consent: how many of us were told, via movies and TV and books, that if you just keep at it and show someone you love that you love them, they’ll eventually come around? That doing things like surprising people at their houses and making huge declarations of love is romantic, even if the person has said “No, I’m not interested?” It’s a devaluation of consent to be sure. So it’s important to be mindful of the stories we share, because even if it IS all pretend, it’s teaching us something! Your policy is a great one for that reason. :smiley:
I’d like to send a private message about your second response, because it’s not really relevant to the discussion of underage consent, which is the subject of this post. Would that be OK? Thank you! :slight_smile:

@Nu-and-the-Nus: Just wanted to say “thank you” for the backup and being so clear! Your compliment was very nice, too. I agree with you about why the clarion call of “pedos and groomers” has returned here, too–far-right politicians (who are sadly becoming more and more mainstream in this country) are using the old favorite boogeyman of trans people because they have little else in terms of policy–especially since the Supreme Court decision overturning the right to abortion, which has been TERRIBLE for them, as it’s motivating people to come out in droves. Without the trump card of “think about the unborn babies!,” it’s back to “think of the children and the scary trans people coming for them!” Ugh…

Thanks, all! Hope you have great days! :slight_smile:

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Of course, anyone can write me a PM about anything, anytime :slight_smile:

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I’ve removed my posts because they were just not relevant to the discussion here. Thanks to all who gave feedback on them though!

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It’s really a shame that you deleted those postings. Especially in the second one (yeah, I can still read them), there are so very valid points.

Why don’t you start a new thread with these issues? They have merit and need to be heard.

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I get anxious in controversial debates as they are done today. As I mentioned, I’m hypersensitive and I get hurt easily. I prefer to stay quiet. I’ve kept a copy of them just in case though.

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Let’s keep the discussion to the topic and not stray into questioning each other’s moral compasses. It does no good to attack one another. Everyone’s view of the world is different. We have to accept this.

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